Melchizedek: King of Justice

Calling all self-proclaimed mangaka!

Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Davidizer13 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:16 pm

invaderv93 wrote: (for instance I again must question the sterile blandness of your environment. It's dystopic, so where is the clutter? Where's the grit? Where's the life? GIVE ME A REASON TO LOOK AT THIS).

This doesn't have to be so bad, I think he's going more for a clean dystopia - see the game Mirror's Edge for an example. Everything looks Apple Store immaculate on the surface, but look a little deeper and you'll see the extreme measures taken to make it that way. Everything's nice until you decide to step out of the line that's been set up for you to follow. Call it iTyranny. If you're going that route, it should be an oppressive, designed blandness, a hyper-homogeneity enforced in everything. For example, a subdivision managed by a homeowner's association. Or in A Wrinkle in Time. When everything's the same, you give the reader the signal that something's off.

I can't see any theme in how your dystopia's set up, speaking of. Lots of people are apparently affluent and able to live normal lives even with punks running around in the streets, but the guy who runs the place (I think?) lives in a dingy apartment. Is the dystopia more of an oppressive one, where central authorities are pushing down dissent, or more of a run down one like in Somalia or the book Snow Crash, where those authorities fell apart and things have run their course from there? Pick one and stick with it. If it's the first, your city should be super clean and intimidating - the people are told they're happy, the trains run on time, and paradise is right around the corner thanks to our benevolent overlords. If it's the latter, well, you've seen what's been going on in Syria lately, right?

Everything else V said still stands, by the way.

Your art's getting better, it's still a little bland and stiff, but you've made some improvements, so don't stop now! With your next few pages, do some more experimentation with light and shadow, using it to build contrasts and making things more visually interesting. A lot of cyberpunk is about the gray areas, between the present and future, human and android, analog and digital, order and anarchy, nature versus concrete jungle, that sort of thing - while I'm not sure if cyberpunk is exactly what you're going for, some things look a little more comic book style "future past" in places, good shading and visual contrasts are always good.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby EHeroAndrew » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:40 pm

Davidizer13 wrote:
invaderv93 wrote: (for instance I again must question the sterile blandness of your environment. It's dystopic, so where is the clutter? Where's the grit? Where's the life? GIVE ME A REASON TO LOOK AT THIS).

This doesn't have to be so bad, I think he's going more for a clean dystopia - see the game Mirror's Edge for an example. Everything looks Apple Store immaculate on the surface, but look a little deeper and you'll see the extreme measures taken to make it that way. Everything's nice until you decide to step out of the line that's been set up for you to follow. Call it iTyranny. If you're going that route, it should be an oppressive, designed blandness, a hyper-homogeneity enforced in everything. For example, a subdivision managed by a homeowner's association. Or in A Wrinkle in Time. When everything's the same, you give the reader the signal that something's off.

I can't see any theme in how your dystopia's set up, speaking of. Lots of people are apparently affluent and able to live normal lives even with punks running around in the streets, but the guy who runs the place (I think?) lives in a dingy apartment. Is the dystopia more of an oppressive one, where central authorities are pushing down dissent, or more of a run down one like in Somalia or the book Snow Crash, where those authorities fell apart and things have run their course from there? Pick one and stick with it. If it's the first, your city should be super clean and intimidating - the people are told they're happy, the trains run on time, and paradise is right around the corner thanks to our benevolent overlords. If it's the latter, well, you've seen what's been going on in Syria lately, right?

Everything else V said still stands, by the way.

Your art's getting better, it's still a little bland and stiff, but you've made some improvements, so don't stop now! With your next few pages, do some more experimentation with light and shadow, using it to build contrasts and making things more visually interesting. A lot of cyberpunk is about the gray areas, between the present and future, human and android, analog and digital, order and anarchy, nature versus concrete jungle, that sort of thing - while I'm not sure if cyberpunk is exactly what you're going for, some things look a little more comic book style "future past" in places, good shading and visual contrasts are always good.


I'm not gonna say too much about the first two paragraph because Chapter 0 will explain all that... sort of... The story is more focused on the social decay rather than the political decay. And as for the design of the city, you'll notice that the farther away you look, it looks clean, but if you look more deeply, it's decaying and rotting. Kinda like Bruce Wayne's line in Batman Year One movie: "Up here, it looks like an achievement. Up here, you can't see the enemy." I like to keep things simple. And no, it's not "cyberpunk". If it was cyberpunk, there would be no superheroes. I got inspiration of the design of the city from Batman Beyond where the cityscape looks simple, but futuristic.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby mechana2015 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:02 am

Looks like time for the anatomy and character design post later today. Let's just say though, as an advance note, that I am incredibly disappointed in your female character design, and even more so disappointed with your response to being told repeatedly that they don't work. That kind of stubbornness doesn't hold up as an professional attitude or a Christian witness, especially when the topic is objectifying women.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby EHeroAndrew » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:57 am

mechana2015 wrote:Looks like time for the anatomy and character design post later today. Let's just say though, as an advance note, that I am incredibly disappointed in your female character design, and even more so disappointed with your response to being told repeatedly that they don't work. That kind of stubbornness doesn't hold up as an professional attitude or a Christian witness, especially when the topic is objectifying women.


I'm not making anymore changes from here on out. And thats final.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby K. Ayato » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:07 am

Sheesh. So much for asking for help when you throw it back in our faces.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby EHeroAndrew » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:39 am

K. Ayato wrote:Sheesh. So much for asking for help when you throw it back in our faces.


I didn't "ask" for help. I said "give feedback if you wish". Those are totally two different things. If I feel like like I need to respond or defend something, I will do so. And most of you guys aren't "helping", you're just telling me what and how to draw my comic, and then get mad because I didn't do what you said. You claim that I have a stubborn attitude, and you are right. But you guys have an attitude of "do what I tell you to do or I'll get mad and bash you over the head with it". I don't give a flying rat's butt if you don't like the way I draw women. Their designs are MODEST compared to other mangas. If you want to talk about comics/manga drawing women sexually, then do yourself a favor and don't read Fairy Tail, you'll have a heart attack. Same thing with One Piece.

Now I'm gonna spell this out for you, Pyra represents the 21XX America of how women are dressing more provocatively than ever before. It represents the cultural decay. The city also represents the cultural decay. I'm not doing it because I'm a love-sick pervert. Her design has a purpose to the message of the story. Eva, on the other hand, represents the woman of my dreams, and a woman that Christian girls should look up to (besides the fact of her breasts size). She's supportive, caring and desires to be a help to Mel.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Panda4christ:3 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:26 am

So I'm just a kid, and I'm not trying to be rude, so please don't be angry.
I just think you shouldn't limit your art so much. You keep saying how you won't change how you draw things to make them better, and you really should.
Art is a limitless hobby, no matter how good you get you can always get better, your art has so much potential and your not willing to explore that, you should always be striving to be a better artist, no matter how good other people or you yourself think you are.
But before you think I'm just here to criticize you, I like your story, and the setup is interesting enough :3 but please listen to what the people here have to say, they are actually trying to help.

I really hope this was helpful, if not then I guess you can just ignore it or something '3' best of luck on your comic, though.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Ante Bellum » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:53 am

Look, son, if you weren't serious in the first place, you should have just come right out and said so.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Xeno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:27 am

I really enjoy starting out my day by reading dumb things people type on the internet. So thank you, E Hero Andrew, for providing me with this necessary service, rather than me having to go spend 20 seconds on Tumblr.

EHeroAndrew wrote:I didn't "ask" for help. I said "give feedback if you wish". Those are totally two different things.

No, they really aren't in this sense. The feedback you are receiving is help instead of praise, because your artwork has been deemed to be worse than that crayon-monkey face on the Jesus painting.

If I feel like like I need to respond or defend something, I will do so.

Bravo! Good for you! Too bad everything you've been responding to or defending are terrible art choices, which are apparently backed up by "art teachers" who don't know what good art actually looks like, and horrible female character design to stay in "DC Universe character standards" which are also horribly sexist. Congratulations!

And most of you guys aren't "helping", you're just telling me what and how to draw my comic, and then get mad because I didn't do what you said. You claim that I have a stubborn attitude, and you are right. But you guys have an attitude of "do what I tell you to do or I'll get mad and bash you over the head with it".

Have you never been given constructive criticism of your art before? Being told something is wrong or needs fixing doesn't warrant the response "NO!!!" from the artist, it warrants the artist going back and looking at their art to see if they can figure out why someone else says it looks bad or wrong they can possibly fix it or determine what the other person is seeing. We aren't tell you how to draw your comic. We aren't telling what style you're supposed to be using or where you need to place your buildings, but for the love of Christ man, you do need to come up with a more consistent style.

I get it. "Batman Beyond." When was the last time you watched Batman Beyond? Do you remember how there was trash all over the ground and rooftops? How there was graffiti everywhere? The sides of buildings are not the only thing that require attention when designing a city.

I don't give a flying rat's butt if you don't like the way I draw women. Their designs are MODEST compared to other mangas. If you want to talk about comics/manga drawing women sexually, then do yourself a favor and don't read Fairy Tail, you'll have a heart attack. Same thing with One Piece.


Well gg here then, because they way you draw women is like a typical sexist male who just doesn't understand how bodies proportionally work. Here's a pro tip for you, they way a woman dresses isn't objectification, because women can dress however they please. It's the shoehorning them all into a single body type, personality type, any other kind of classification that is the objectification. This is where you're not getting it, and I'm fairly confident you'll continue to not get it because of your preference in women, but drawing all your female characters with the same body type (especially one that is nearly impossible to have) is sexist.

Now I'm gonna spell this out for you, Pyra represents the 21XX America of how women are dressing more provocatively than ever before. It represents the cultural decay. The city also represents the cultural decay.

lol, you're not a republican or a libertarian by any chance are you? Pyra's costume isn't provocative, it just doesn't operate correctly in the real world. Her top would just fall off, or her breasts would pop clean out of it. Pro tip two: every generation has seen future generations as the embodiment of cultural decay. Nothing is decaying, the times, they're just a changin'.

The city also doesn't really seem to represent any kind of cultural decay. It just looks like building with some "urban decay" on them.

I'm not doing it because I'm a love-sick pervert. Her design has a purpose to the message of the story.

Sure you're not.

Eva, on the other hand, represents the woman of my dreams, and a woman that Christian girls should look up to (besides the fact of her breasts size). She's supportive, caring and desires to be a help to Mel.

So the woman of your dreams is an underground-fundamentalist-christian superhero with JJ-cup sized breasts who lives with (who I assume is her) brother who gives off this weirdly incestuous vibe, both of which live in a Hobbit hole with a old-man with a Moses-beard and an old lady who remarkably looks like she's in her 30s despite that she's probably in her 60s or older. Did I get that right? I think I got that right.



Look, it's pretty clear where you're going with this story. Atheists are mean and evil and have persecuted Christians into either leaving, hiding, or giving up on their faith. Natural Selection is the embodiment of non-belief, while Mel is the embodiment of Christian idealism and the two will go at it in the perceived nature that you imagine the two have always gone at it in the real world. This is a bad direction to take a story, and honestly it's pretty typical of Christian media to depict this kind of stuff, so salvage it while you can and change the plot you have laid out. Oh wait, I forgot,
I'm not making anymore changes from here on out. And thats final.
never mind then, just keep making this awful thing and we'll keep telling you how bad it is. We enjoy the laughs.
Last edited by Xeno on Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby MomentOfInertia » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:28 am

EHeroAndrew wrote:I'm not gonna say too much about the first two paragraph because Chapter 0 will explain all that... sort of... The story is more focused on the social decay rather than the political decay. And as for the design of the city, you'll notice that the farther away you look, it looks clean, but if you look more deeply, it's decaying and rotting. Kinda like Bruce Wayne's line in Batman Year One movie: "Up here, it looks like an achievement. Up here, you can't see the enemy." I like to keep things simple. And no, it's not "cyberpunk". If it was cyberpunk, there would be no superheroes. I got inspiration of the design of the city from Batman Beyond where the cityscape looks simple, but futuristic.


I think you've got a bit of a misconception going there; just because your story belongs to one genre does not mean that your setting cannot be based in another. For example Star Wars is often considered to be a fantasy story being told in a scifi setting. Or to take your own reference, a fair portion of Batman Beyond can be considered to be cyberpunk, it is a show that lives in a high tech relatively-near future setting stories of scifi and cyberpunk are a very short step from the mad science of many Batman villains.

It is perfectly reason able to borrow elements and concepts from genres close to your own (and sometimes even quite far from your own), don't limit yourself to only one type of story, only one set of tropes, keep an open mind and an open sketchbook.

EHeroAndrew wrote:I didn't "ask" for help. I said "give feedback if you wish". Those are totally two different things. If I feel like like I need to respond or defend something, I will do so. And most of you guys aren't "helping", you're just telling me what and how to draw my comic, and then get mad because I didn't do what you said. You claim that I have a stubborn attitude, and you are right. But you guys have an attitude of "do what I tell you to do or I'll get mad and bash you over the head with it". I don't give a flying rat's butt if you don't like the way I draw women. ...

Okay now this seems to be a straight communications issue. You said "give feedback if you wish", probably expecting mostly compliments and some minor pointers. They heard "open for comment/advice" and gave you a lecture.

...Their designs are MODEST compared to other mangas. If you want to talk about comics/manga drawing women sexually, then do yourself a favor and don't read Fairy Tail, you'll have a heart attack. Same thing with One Piece.

This is a poor defense, you are comparing apples and pineapples (or maybe apples and devil-fruit :cool: ).

The stories and world of most manga are only related to reality by the tenuous of connections One Piece is an excellent example of this; there are no rules of conventional physics, chemistry, biology, or anything else that hold true in that wold without being warped to one degree or another (or several at once).

Most types of stories have certain expectations placed on them, what sort of characters, places, and equipment will be found in them; how things tend to look and so on. Most manga and anime are expected to be somewhere between slightly odd and completely mad. Stories like One Piece are obviously pretty crazy, but other stories like Ghost in the Shell, are far closer to reality aside from their small set of stated differences.

The story you seem to be trying to tell is the sort of thing that requires a much more grounded world to work well and carry any sort of message that the reader might decipher before the end of the century (unless you're planning to beat us over the head with it).

If you want anime or manga to compare to you would be better off looking at something like Ghost in the Shell or Tiger and Bunny.

Now I'm gonna spell this out for you, Pyra represents the 21XX America of how women are dressing more provocatively than ever before. It represents the cultural decay. The city also represents the cultural decay. I'm not doing it because I'm a love-sick pervert. Her design has a purpose to the message of the story.

And no one is saying that you are or that she can't. The complaints flow primarily from her unnatural physique and improbable costume. Unless you were planing to do a sermon against breast implants* at some point you should be able to get that same level of ... provocation from a flatter breast and a less modest costume. Something with a bare midriff probably.

Eva, on the other hand, represents the woman of my dreams,.

Oooh be careful with that sort of thing, you'll get her branded as a mary sue
and a woman that Christian girls should look up to.

Okay.
(besides the fact of her breasts size)..

*facepalm*
She's supportive, caring and desires to be a help to Mel.

Good for her.

* or make 'em important to the plot somehow, made of kyptonite or something, I'm thinking about this one anime that had a one-eyed gal that kept one more bomb in the empty socket (no matches though (fortunately it wound up being used against a guy with a flamethrower)). Of course this drops us right back into that love-sick pervert thing so..... nevermind I guess.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby goldenspines » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:20 pm

Wow, this is a thread. All right, before this gets any more heated than it already is, let's all take a few steps back, a few deep breaths, jog around the block for a bit, etc.

Okay, has everyone done that? Good.

As a professionally trained illustrator with dotted experience of graphic design, traveling the long road to becoming an "established artist" is not a walk in the park. In fact, I'm still traveling that path.
EHeroAndrew, you have met with a rather harsh hit to the face which, while not unrealistic from the real world (though, some people will just ignore you and not even give you the time of day), for someone starting out with big hopes and dreams like yourself, it can be rather jarring.
I've had professors who will only glance at a project I slaved hours into only to say "Redo it, but better this time." They do give me tips on how to improve, but an immediate dismissal is hard to stomach.
Which is why I think that you are becoming so defensive and upset with most of the people in this thread. Which obviously, doesn't help you become better, nor does it help the other people trying to help you. Because there is a LOT of good advice in this thread, but it's hard to wade through it all when not much of it is encouraging. XD

As a disclaimer, I haven't read your whole comic (if I have the time later, I'll give it a go. Or if you PM me and ask me personally. I don't mean that as "I don't care.", but I'm pretty busy and forget stuff, so remind me if you want more in depth feedback on the art/story/perspective/etc.), but I did glance over it and the art style is not too bad. Actually, I can tell you learn from "how to draw comics" books and I can tell that you have worked pretty hard at getting where you are now. So give yourself a pat on the back and be glad you can at least draw recognizable figures and mostly clean lines (not everyone can do that).

See? You're not terrible. But you're not awesome yet either (most people don't get awesome until after years and years and years of hard work. Most successful illustrators are well into their 40s and 50s). Though hang in there, you're past the hard part. For one, you actually want to draw and like drawing. Do you make mistakes? Yes. But the more you draw and try to improve, the better you will get. It may be slow at first, but don't worry, it will pick up speed after a while.

So, I don't know all the resources you are using now, but I'll give you a few tips to help you improve just in general as an artist. If you want nitpicky stuff, though, just let me know. XD

1). I think you mentioned you took some life drawing classes, that's awesome! Keep at it. Or rather, instead of studying comic drawing books, study anatomy books. Comic art and any sort of cartoon or stylized art becomes a lot easier and better looking once you know how to draw realistically. Yes, I know it's boring, real people, that is. XD But once you know how the body works, not just for men and women, but for various body types, then you have the tools to create any type of stylized figure and still make it look awesome. O:
So, study anatomy. Like, bones and muscles as well. My life drawing professor was originally an orthopedic surgeon and he would have us draw all the bones and muscles in various parts of the body. That class was probably my most valuable.

2). Draw something every day that's not related to your comic. You may do this already, but it's a nice thing to keep in mind. But more importantly, draw from life, the things around you. Draw your computer, draw your pet (if you have one), draw your desk, draw your bed, draw your food, etc. Basically, look at someone that is not a picture and draw it. Even if it's the most boring thing ever, try to draw it as accurately as possible.
If you aren't used to drawing boring things like mugs and hats and apples, this will be rather painful at first, but believe me, you will learn some very invaluable skills from it that comic drawing books cannot teach you. Anyone can copy a style, but to create your own drawing style takes a ability to look at something and be able to not only draw it accurately, but be able to change it at will with your own flare.


These tips will take time, as it always does. Art is not easy. XD Comic making is probably one of the hardest mediums to work in because you have to work both in pictures and in text, PLUS you have to make them actually work together well enough for someone to actually want to read it. D: It's tough, but the more you practice, the better you will get.

Keep at it and good luck!
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Ante Bellum » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:21 pm

Xeno wrote:
Eva, on the other hand, represents the woman of my dreams, and a woman that Christian girls should look up to (besides the fact of her breasts size). She's supportive, caring and desires to be a help to Mel.

So the woman of your dreams is an underground-fundamentalist-christian superhero with JJ-cup sized breasts who lives with (who I assume is her) brother who gives off this weirdly incestuous vibe, both of which live in a Hobbit hole with a old-man with a Moses-beard and an old lady who remarkably looks like she's in her 30s despite that she's probably in her 60s or older. Did I get that right? I think I got that right.


The only traits he can use to describe her are "supporting, caring, and desires to be a help to Mel." Because women are worthless without men, right? Women are only there to be cheerleaders, right? She's barely a character. At least Pyra seems to have some potential, uninteresting as she is (and let's face it, nothing about this comic is interesting). Eva's more like a personal robot, even though I've seen robots with more character than her.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Xeno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:28 pm

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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby EHeroAndrew » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:34 pm

Xeno wrote:Image


Yes, feed me your rage ha-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta!
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Xeno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:12 pm

Actual real world lols if you think any of us are enraged by anything happening in this thread. Have to say it's been p funny watching you get legit mad at some internet strangers telling you the truth about your artwork though.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby EHeroAndrew » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:28 pm

Who said I was mad? Lol
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Midori » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:28 pm

Xeno wrote:Actual real world lols if you think any of us are enraged by anything happening in this thread. Have to say it's been p funny watching you get legit mad at some internet strangers telling you the truth about your artwork though.

Actually, I'm pretty mad at you (Xeno) right now. It sure looks like you're trying to make somebody angry for your own amusement and, well, that makes me mad. If that wasn't your intent, please clear that up ASAP.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Xeno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:35 pm

lol no. I'm not trying to make him mad for my own amusement. However, with that said, I do find amusement from people getting mad about people giving unexpected forms of feedback. Looks the same, but it's different.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby Davidizer13 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:46 am

EHeroAndrew wrote: I like to keep things simple. And no, it's not "cyberpunk". If it was cyberpunk, there would be no superheroes.

Funny, it's probably just me, but I get the opposite impression from cyberpunk. A lot of the themes of cyberpunk push towards a world where anyone can have superpowers - in virtual reality, through cybernetic replacements/transhumanism, by hacking a megacorp's bank accounts and buying an army of mercenaries with the money... But that's neither here nor there. My point about adding more lighting and shadows still stands, though - it'll help fight off the flat feeling your art still has.

Mech will probably be around eventually with more on character design, but I once heard this: if you can't tell your characters apart if they're bald and naked, you don't have distinctive designs yet. To help with that, you might want to try drawing a height comparison just to have around for a quick reference for when characters are together in the same scene. It's a little low-res, but here's a lineup of all the characters in Fullmetal Alchemist to show what I'm talking about:

Image

Even when half the characters are wearing the same uniforms, they're still distinctive enough that you can tell them apart, both in appearance and their actions in the plot. Your story might not have quite that many characters (and that's probably only half of everyone in FMA anyway), but that's still essential to do. And speaking of character design and FMA, the women of that series show quite the variation in body type, being sexy without being sexualized (with one intentional exception), and exhibiting equally variable characterizations and paths of development. Not only that, but it's a really good comic, doing great things with black and white art - you might as well pick up some tips from the best if you haven't already, right?

One last thing:
EHeroAndrew wrote:I'm not doing it because I'm a love-sick pervert.

EHeroAndrew wrote:Eva, on the other hand, represents the woman of my dreams

No comment.
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby EHeroAndrew » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:26 am

*Posted something but retracting it*
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Re: Melchizedek: King of Justice

Postby shooraijin » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:53 pm

I think this thread has run its course anyway. I've been toying with locking it and I think this is a good time.

EHeroAndrew, you've had lots of suggestions; good luck with them.
"you're a doctor.... and 27 years.... so...doctor + 27 years = HATORI SOHMA" - RoyalWing, when I was 27
"Al hail the forum editting Shooby! His vibes are law!" - Osaka-chan

I could still be champ, but I'd feel bad taking it away from one of the younger guys. - George Foreman
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shooraijin
 
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