Harry Potter

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Postby Jasdero » Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:34 am

I really do enjoy reading the Harry Potter novels. The movies are... not as appealing, but still good. I personally don't believe that by reading it, I'm not a Christian any longer, but I'm not going to discuss my beliefs... I just find all of the books in the Harry Potter series very enjoyable : )
Bobtheduck wrote:In any case, These books are very addicting...

Most definitely. I only started reading them when book 5 came out. I bought all five books together, and I read all of them in two days. I had a really bad headache though afterward... but I loved them : )
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Postby Raiden no Kishi » Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:37 am

Here's my two yen.

I do not feel that the books themselves are evil, satanic, of the devil or any other such things.

I do, however, believe a boatload of discenment is required before reading the series or allowing one's children to read it. The witchcraft in HP has been based on real witchcraft to an extent and as such is potentially dangerous; furthermore, the main characters often, from what I've heard, break school rules with little to no punishment, even when punishment is due. I worry about the moral picture this is painting. Book characters are role models for our youth, and frankly, I'm not so sure these are the right role models that we ought to have.

Not wishing to start anything, but merely stating my opinion,

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Postby madphilb » Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:08 pm

Raiden no Kishi wrote:The witchcraft in HP has been based on real witchcraft to an extent and as such is potentially dangerous]
I've heard this statement made quite often by people, yet I'm puzzled where people get this idea from when real life witches are saying it's got nothing to do with reality? If the reference is to Cliche things like broomsticks and wands, then I suggest finding a few good books written by Chritian authors that really know about these types of things and learn about what real witchcraft is.

I do agree that decernment should be used with these books, esp. with younger people as some of the themes are somewhat mature, esp. as the books progress. But the same can be said of most literature, even some Christian writings.


Raiden no Kishi wrote:furthermore, the main characters often, from what I've heard, break school rules with little to no punishment, even when punishment is due. I worry about the moral picture this is painting. Book characters are role models for our youth, and frankly, I'm not so sure these are the right role models that we ought to have.

This is true to a point, you can see somewhat where things have gone in the opposite direction in book 5 (often time being punished harshly for mild offences)...

In addition as I've said before (here or otherwise I can't remember), this issue is the core of quite a few Disney movies, including movies like "The Parrent Trap" (take your pick, both movies have the same issues involved).

At points in the HP books the kids will do things against the rules at times where the result is for good (the end of Prisoner, encouraged by the head of the school even), sometimes (as in the end of the 1st book) the results are to foil what the adults and leaders don't even understand or see as a problem (not that the children have all the correct information or answers). Then there are times such as the end of book 5 where the results are more-or-less disaster.


In the end though, if you (anyone) doesn't feel right about reading these books, I highly encourage you to follow those feelings and don't read them, however I'd have to say to be careful where you get your information about them as there is quite a bit of bad information that goes around, most of which is based on bad assumptions or by trying really hard to come up with validations for personal feelings.
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Postby One and Only » Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:03 pm

i just choose to not read them since i do not feel like God would want me to. i'm not saying that people who read them are non-christians, its just that i dont feel right about it... oh well thats just my take on it
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Postby Solid Ronin » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:36 pm

HARRY POTTER IS THE DEVIL!! IF YOU READ HARRY POTTER YOUR A BAD PERSON!!(end joke)

On a serious note.

Although I did chose the "It comes from the devil" option (did I spell that right). I merly chose it cause I thought it humorous. However I wouldnt read the book for the reasons that it just dosent interset me.

I mean. No ninjas. No samurai. No giant fighting robots. No cool looking spikey headed characters. No thank you.
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Postby Mangafanatic » Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:32 pm

Oh but Ronin, there's are loads of mechas in it. Really. Harry and Malfoy get out in a couple of EVA units and duke it out atleast every fifty pages. What? You don't believe me? Well, uh, it's the truth.. . . yeah. *Mangafanatic tried to maintain her composer but her eye starts twitching, giving away that's she lying about Harry Potter in an attempt to lure the unsuspecting Ronin into reading them.*
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.

Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.

But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
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Postby Jester » Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:43 pm

I know this is going to be restating what has already been said, but I am going to clear a lot of issues up by this (I hope). I am not planning on persuading anyone to read or not to read as that is not my intent.

Please note that this message is long, and reading it will require much patience, bear with me.

The original form of what I will call hysteria, as opposed to witch hunt, started with an online satire magazine called the Onion. It basically took the scary fears that many Christians had sitting in the backs of their minds by claiming that occult temples were claiming that Harry Potter spells were real and you could learn them at their places. Therefore causing a huge increase in occult populations. Jokingly quoting false comments of children saying obscene things about plans for learning evil spells. I would give an example, but the cleanest one would not be appropriate for here.

Most claims of the Onion were false, however, some occult spokespeople did claim about spells being real. Others who claim to be real witches have said that these were fake. And like what was said before, the majority are pseudo latin tied with english and jibberish.

My cousin (mothers generation), is a pastor and recieved many concerns relating the article. So to understand all parts of the story, he read HP from an objective point of view, and found nothing directly refuting Christianity or promoting occult, nothing subliminally, and only semi questionable things that were not directly related.

On the Astrology note, this is about the only thing closely realistic to reality, which comes in the form of predictions. When refering to what stars are bright and what aren't, goes not directly into witchcraft, but greek and latin beliefs of the stars telling the future. Namely by what gods the stars represented (Mars: War, battle)

Narnia's references to the stars were only by what patterns were visible if I remember correctly. This is called astronomy which is simply the study of space and stars. It has nothing to do with religion.

It's true that the book does glorify witchcraft, wizardry, and deliberate disobedience of authority. Only the last one is a legit arguement as it is a direct moral issue. When it comes to glorifications of these, they must be read with recognition that these are simply in a made up world with few or no ties to the real world (IE: Fantasy). If they are read in context of assuming them to be an authority on the laws, physics, rules, and morals, they will not be a positive influence in any way.

Most of the "witchcraft" in the book is through cliches as was mentioned. Wands, Cauldrons, potions, fantasy creatures, undead, etc. are all stereotypical of folktales that a common mistake is to believe that they are what actually happens.

In reality (I am not wiccan or witch, I know people who believe in wicca and honestly recognize that I am different in my christian beliefs), cauldrons/bowls are sometimes used, mostly in herbology though, potions are stereotyped, Wiccans are believers in the earth's spirit and therefore focus much around herbology and with the exception of not believing in the Christian God, often have benevolent wishes/beliefs. Scryeing is sometimes used, (That's the thing with pendulums over maps and whatnot.)

As for witchcraft (yes, they are very different), I don't know many specifics, but I can all but guarentee that HP still only uses stereotypes.

As a note, I will let you know that I have not been involved in any wiccan or witchery acts at all. I only have knowledge of them.

I will go off on a tangent here. Many Native American beliefs are polytheistic, however, one must realize that they still worship the good gods. When you compare their gods and representations, and our God and representations given in the Bible. They are strikingly similar. In fact, Native Americans' beliefs were/are devout in nearly the same exact beliefs as polytheistic as they had to make sure to pray for protection in each areas the gods they have covered. The only difference being number, I know the Bible says only one God, and I am not refuting that, I am simply observing that there are religions that are very similar to Christianity, and only have slightly different interpretations (This could be due to being spread by word of mouth over long periods of time and long distances with a large amount of early time translations and across many languages. Remember the tower of Babel?)

On a moral note: My only discouraging about the book is the morality of bucking the given authority, Harry and his friends do in numerous times throughout each book. However, it is a very common theme with any kid's book or cartoon. Therefore I consider it to be a small issue.

If anyone would like to ask my opinion of Harry Potter as a literary work, feel free to PM or Email me, since the literary value is not the subject of this topic, I will leave that for later.
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Postby Xavier249 » Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:31 pm

hmm . . I will not continues the argument concerning the witchcraft/whatever.

However I have to say that "However, it is a very common theme with any kid's book or cartoon. Therefore I consider it to be a small issue" is a flawed argument. Your basically saying because everyone is doing it, it is okay/small. I don't exactly think it is a large issue, but I believe it is closer to large than small. The main thing I wanted to point out was that your argument needs a different stance. Thanks.
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Postby Jester » Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:31 pm

I'm not saying anything different from everyone else, IMO, witchcraft and whatnot is wrong and I am not condoning it in any form. But I'm not saying that HP is evil and inspired by the devil. Because there would be some serious problems in that case than from a lot more people than the Onion set off.

Like I said, the book is not meant to be an authority on anything, because it is fantasy fiction, it is intended to create a custom fictional world that develops characters who people may like or dislike as whatever the case may be. Just like many other book series, Dragonlance, Narnia, Shannara, Redwall, and every other Fantasy or Science Fiction based book.

The morality of a child or youth bucking authority is wrong, but it is not the pivot point of my entire arguement. Why I say it's a small issue is because it tends to be natural for a child to test their limits on boundries.

If you want to know who I would recommend the book to, that would be a different story entirely, it wouldn't be children because they often lack the ability to read things without considering it to be an authority or use judgement as to where to draw a line on separating beliefs, fiction, and action. With an active imagination, an 8 year old will run around yelling these nonsense spells at other 8 year olds, is that all right? If the child firmly and falsely believes he's a witch or wizard, no. I have very strong and picky beliefs about this stuff, I don't ride lines.

I am simply stating the background, fiction and truth behind a lot of the topics and concerns of the book series. I am not here to convince anyone my beliefs as everybody has theirs, I respect your Catholic background Xavier, however I may disagree with some Catholic views, but I am not going to say that I am an authority and say "this is right" or "this is wrong". I am merely clearing up issues as I said.
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Postby merrick » Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:29 am

Rachel wrote:i am a big fan of harry potter. i think it is a good series and there are some good lessons that can be learned from it.


i agree, i think that you can really learn from the books
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Postby SorasOathkeeper » Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:18 am

Ahhhh!!! Herry Potter Evil!!! Lord Of The Rings All The Way!!!
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:05 pm

How tell me Sora, how would lord of the rings be any different from haryr potter?

Gandalf is a wizard, and he casts spells, there are orcish hordes, and the nazgul (demons/monsters)

Harry Potter is a wizard, and there are trolls, and stuff. So how can someone say that harry potter is evil, and LORT is not?

oh... unless you were just saying that because you don't like harry potter for reasons not pertaining to religion. Brings me back to that old "Is Dungeons and dragons evil or not" topic
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Postby madphilb » Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:25 pm

Selective Grace. Most Christians are guilty of it at one point or anthor (myself included). We'll forvige the offences of one thing that doesn't strike us personally as "bad" while not giving and inch of ground to something equally or lesser offensive.

In the end if others feel that HP is evil, that's ok too, so long as they understand that their belief isn't etched into the world with God's finger or anything.

edit: oh, just to throw a little gas on the fire, found this article from Christaintiy Today, it's kinda relevent, enjoy:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/books/features/bccorner/020218.html
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Postby Mangafanatic » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:58 pm

Well, said Mad Phil. Hey, Sora, Pm me about this sometime, k? I'd love to talk about it with you. I'm interested to hear what you think.
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.

Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.

But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
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Postby EireWolf » Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:09 pm

That is a very interesting article indeed, madphilb. :thumb:
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Postby Warrior 4 Jesus » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:01 am

I enjoyed Harry Potter, but am not obsessed with it (that would be Tintin).
The books were good but not I feel written for children. They become increasingly darker and many children can't diferentiate between reality and fantasy. This is where I think the problem lies. There are obviously bad stuff like divination and others but there isn't much of that, it doesn't focus on it or glorify it in any way.

I would say Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings are more safe fantasy but that's because they have a Christian perspective.
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Postby Mangafanatic » Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:03 am

Warrior 4 Jesus wrote:
I would say Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings are more safe fantasy but that's because they have a Christian perspective.


I would be interest to know what makes you say this. I see the same phantasy elements and the same, or alteast similar, positive elements. Please, elaborate for my sake.
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.

Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.

But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:17 am

what bothers me most about Harry Potter is that it's so focused on children. the people doing the magic are children. kids often want to be like their literary heroes.

Lord of the Rings' target audience is not children. there are wizards, yes, but how often does Gandalf actually use his power? the story isn't about magic, it's not even a really big element.

and actually, there WAS a "god" of Middle Earth, the people just didn't make an organized religion out of him apparently. (read the Silmarillion sometime.) and actually, [spoiler]Gandalf is what's called a Maiar, or a "lesser god" of Middle Earth. sort of like an archangel, from what I gathered.[/spoiler]

I'm not saying Harry Potter is of the devil or whatever, but I think we need to be making very clear to our children the difference between fantasy and reality, and explain that witchcraft is very real and not to be fooled around with.
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Postby Hephzibah » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:09 am

To expand further on what Shiroi was saying... (click and drag to highlight)

There is one 'god' in Tolkien's works... Iluvatar (or Eru). Before he created Middle Earth and such, he created angel like beings called Valar. One Valar, Melkor, decided to create his own 'song' (read the first chapter of the Silmarillion... makes more sense :P), basically rebelling against Eru. Some of the Valar followed him, but the majority remained with Eru. Shortly after, Eru made the 'earth'. Some of the Valar, including Melkor, went down to Middle Earth... Melkor to conquer it, but the others to tend it in preparation for the elves and humans.

To cut a long story very short, Melkor becomes the enemy of all people on Middle Earth. Sauron, the main baddy from LOTR, was his leiutenant (sp?). The 'wizards' are believed by some to be Valar in disguise; or Maiar; sent to help the people of Middle Earth...

I'm seeing some VERY distinct parallels here... :D
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Postby Warrior 4 Jesus » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:19 am

I know! Reading the first part of the Silmarillion was like reading the Creation in Genesis and the Original Sin in fantasy style. The Silmarillion is a great book, although some parts are a bit slow. But very interesting nonetheless!
Many Tolkien fans don't even realise Tolkien's works have Christian undercurrents. They say things like "Christian's are trying to take credit for anything that is popular" or "your'e making it all up to make Christians look good." I disagree, but we live in a broken world so its not possible for everyone to agree.
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Postby mitsuki lover » Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:50 pm

I think that there are a lot of BIGGER problems that Christians should focus on such as helping the Church in Iraq recover from the war there,etc.
than arguing over wheter or not a children's fantasy series is some how
"Satanically Evil".
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Postby christianfriend » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:11 pm

I love it!! Its a very good book...or..books..Its so suspensful..and all the characters are so well put together..HARRY POTTER ROCKS!!
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Postby PumpkinKoRn52 » Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:32 am

I really don't like the books. Not because I think they're evil, but because I just hate the books. There crappy to me. All these people think they are evil because they've gotta find some scapegoat. Let people make up there own minds. Please!
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Postby ZiP » Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:26 pm

Are you addressing those who call harry potter satan spawn?
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