Manga & Character Bibles

Projects or project ideas in the works

Manga & Character Bibles

Postby Archan » Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:55 am

Uh, this is strickly a professional question/suggestion....

And mainly, it's directed towards the Manager and the rest of the staff mainly in charge of the ongoing projects as this association. However, anyone else who wants to post feel free to do so.

First off, does anyone here know what a character bible or a conceptual bible is?

Second, has anyone here gone thorugh the entire process of Concept-Layout-and Production/Publication?

Why am I asking this? Well, for a very valid reason. I notice there are alot of threads here asking for artist and such to work on this project and that, as well as a steady supply of threads asking for more artist to work on existing shows.

This is great, the only thing is (And I'm speaking on only my behalf, mine and a few other artist whom attend the same college I do) when addressing Artist, whom are primarily visual people (we do work in a very visual medium) starting threads like, "I have this ideal, and it's for a story/manga titled 'The Narrow Path', so I need to know if anyone is interested."

Thats just not nearly enough. Because what ends up happening is a artist might commit themselves out of obligation and then lose enthusiasm because the story concept wasn't what they expected or wished to be involved with. And all that does is waste valuble time, I know this because I've experienced it first hand, both as an artist and as a director.

So how would one solve this?

Well (And I hope I'm not suggesting too mush of stepping out of line) I would strongly consider utilizing Bibles for pitch threads asking for artist here, and for writers whom aren't artist, a nice summary of your concept with just enough information to indicate Plot, Charaters, Genre, and setting (I've seen few people do this, but not nearly enough. Or worse, they'll utilize it but then start another thread assuming everyone has read their previous thread and that thread ends up being buried :waah!: ). Also, include thumbs and anykind of art, because I think this would be just a better organized way as well as a stronger way to handle these projects. Plus, it would just appeal more to me personally in case I would be considering working on some ideal floating around out there.

Not only this, but you also run sort of a calculated risk. The more vague anyone is with their ideal, the more freedom they give the artist, which can be both good and bad, because you'll get more variety, but it will sloly start to become more of what the artist is invisioning and less like what the creators original vision was.

I think I've said enough for the moment, what I'm trying to get at though kind of soley rests on how far the Managing staff are willing to go with their ideals, or if the anime produced are just soley for the web.

Eagerly Awaiting Responses,
God Bless,
Archan

P.S. This is also sort of an open invitation for e-mails by particular individuals whom would like to discuss these matters more privetly and get a more, direct answer from me (As a professional) :thumb:
1 Peter 5:10 "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
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Postby uc pseudonym » Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:09 am

This post, in general, could appear negative. Allow me to assure you that it should be viewed in a positive and interested light.

Archan wrote:First off, does anyone here know what a character bible or a conceptual bible is?


I have only a vague understanding, that is, I do not know well enough. Perhaps it would be for the best if you were to explain this more explicitly.

Archan wrote:Well (And I hope I'm not suggesting too mush of stepping out of line) I would strongly consider utilizing Bibles for pitch threads asking for artist here, and for writers whom aren't artist, a nice summary of your concept with just enough information to indicate Plot, Charaters, Genre, and setting (I've seen few people do this, but not nearly enough. Or worse, they'll utilize it but then start another thread assuming everyone has read their previous thread and that thread ends up being buried :waah!: ).


Conversely, most artists are busy people, with little time to read anything more extensive. My own concept (The Fall) is far more complex than what you described (being greater than 100,000 words in totality) and has received little interest even as a work of literature.

Archan wrote:Also, include thumbs and anykind of art, because I think this would be just a better organized way as well as a stronger way to handle these projects.


But how would a person in such a position create thumbnails, or indeed any kind of art? Unless, of course, I misunderstand the concept the prior sentence was meant to convey.

Archan wrote:I think I've said enough for the moment, what I'm trying to get at though kind of soley rests on how far the Managing staff are willing to go with their ideals, or if the anime produced are just soley for the web.


My own view is considerably higher, if it matters.

Archan wrote:P.S. This is also sort of an open invitation for e-mails by particular individuals whom would like to discuss these matters more privetly and get a more, direct answer from me (As a professional) :thumb:


You have used the term professional in regard to yourself rather frequently as of late, which of course begs the following question: professional in what?
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Postby true_noir_chloe » Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:07 pm

First off, Mave told me about this thread and told me to respond. So here I am.:) *hehe*

Archan, I thought your information was great. I believe those managing a project should be as direct, cohesive and complete in their idea as possible. A conceptual bible or character bible is a good idea. Also, the writer should pretty much have a basic understanding of the beginning, middle and end of their work.

When I first present a proposal of a manga script I always have a brief summary and ask what would they desire me to send them? I already have a complete character description list - which is my character bible I would guess - which my friend who is married to a professional mangaka (meaning published) told me is the best she's seen in way of being very complete. In regard to concept I have a summary of one to two pages and then the first chapter of script, formatted according to the animation script guidelines from the most recent resources available to me. I follow the one in The Complete Book of Scriptwriting by J. Michael Straczynski.

I realize an artist is very visual and I realize they need as much description as possible - even moreso than my script. So, for my artist I make sure the character design sheet is as descriptive as possible. Also, I write my script with page numbers for the manga and panels, anywhere from full page to seven panels per page. The artist has the last word as to how they think those panels will fit when they draw. I think an artist should have the freedom to be creative to a point, as long as it doesn't ruin the overall concept of the work. It's really a matter of trust between artist and writer and the one overlooking the project.

I also think that they need to understand what is expected from them, in way of a time line. I prefer punctuality on a project. If I say I will do something I do it, and if they say they will do something I expect the same. However, things happen.

So, if you want to discuss our work via email I would love to. I admire your art very much.

Mave and I have been working on a couple of projects for around eight months now and we go by the name, "The Happy-Go-Lucky-Monkey Co." and we're looking for an artist who is good with monsters and mechanical stuff. ~_^*hinthint* We have one other artist who does backgrounds beautifully and characters. Also, I'm very picky about the art style. I would eventually like to be professional, and I expect professional quality work and a bit of a commitment to put out their best work. Also, I want to see the mangakas with me succeed and do well. I'm older and this is like a hobby, but they have their whole lives ahead of them.

For now, in the next month or so, we may have something in way of an online manga being introduced on Mave's "Kingdom Come" site. Eventually, we will have our own HGLM site and then from there, who knows. Right now, I'm writing the description for the site and the doctrinal statement and such and we're in a planning stage. I want it to be Christian based but not Christian exclusive. I'd love to see non-Christians start reading our manga and thinking, "wow this is actually good stuff and its put out by Christians!"

[size=84][color=seagreen]YOU SEE


You see into the deepest part of me ---

beyond the fog I hide behind.

You cast your light upon the shadows

that stretch like cobwebs in my mind.

You ease the pain when I am hurting,

and morbid visions from my past

pierce into the realm of Reason

as though I danced on blades of glass.

You grant me strength when I have fallen

and, once again, I've lost my way.

You take my hand in Yours and lead me

into the promise of a brand new day.

You bring order to all my chaos,

yet set my well-laid plans awry.

You place me on a firm foundation ---

then give me wings so I can fly.

You sand away my roughened edges

and polish all the dullest parts

until I stand before Your presence...

a newly-sculpted work of art.

You see into the heart within me,

right through my motives and selfish will.

And yet, in spite of all You see

You say You love me even still.


~by D.M.~

[/color][/size]
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Postby Archan » Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:56 am

Hummmm.....

Honestly I'm surprised I haven't recieved more replies to a matter as crucial as this. Then again, people might be in the same type of situations as I am (No sleep, More then enough work, Low on caffine ^^;) so I'll give it a little longer.

I'll reply to UC first being I've always replied in order, and why break up an old habit now of all times... :P

UC:

First off thanks in clerifying that this thread was in now way suppose to be negative. It's mainly more of a great concern though, but no, not negative. If anything I've posted this for my own creative curiosity.

Explain what a character bible and concept bible is, sure!



First off a character bible is a visual aid done pior to pre-production so the hired artist and staff always have a reffrence to the characters to make sure they are always drawn on model. Included in a Character bible are the following, Turnarounds, Action Poses, Head Turnarounds, Props (Weapons, decals, markings, etc), Costumes, Expression Chart, Color Treatments (Oprtional for B&W Manga, but should still be noted), Charater Bios, Demeanor, and history of all the included (and if not all a the least the main)charaters to be starring in the Manga. This bible is always in order of character or page type (Either all the pages relating to one character are located in one section, or all the pages are divided and sorted by type {Turnarounds, Props, Costumes, etc.}) Also, this bible should be readily accessable to one's production team and publically accessible if one is to interest any future artist.



A concept bible goes as follows: Character wise a coceptual bible may only include your main characters, short bios, roles, turnarounds, one major head study, and any other information vital to the show at the least. Along with this however the following is also included, environments (BG's, Pans, Building layouts), locations (Environmental studies), veichles (If any), major vital secondary characters or machinery (Mech's, Armed personel, landmarks) as well as a summary for plots to cover one whole volume.




This is what they are. I know it's alot, but you'd be surprised how little it actually is when he work is divided between two to three people, let alone seven or more.

I described the Fall? Well, just to be more direct and clear, my observation was a generalization and a set example for more then one story I've read about here at this thread. I keep from setting examples from existing work here to keep from offending anyone. If you think I was soley speaking of 'The Fall", I wasn not, and apologize if you were offended as well as anyone else, and if there is a pitch out there titled "the Narrow Path", I'm really sorry, because that was just by pure chance, I was reffering to the phrase "The straight and narrow path.." not to anyones particular ideal....*sweat drop*

As for artist not having time to read, says who? If any artist whom wants to work on anything conceptual is too lazy to read a detailed discription on what he/she will be working on, I don't think you'll want that artist working for you. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying post an entire novel, but people posting and pitching ideals should include more then a paragraph (And I do see memebers here do exactly that, I'd just wish there where more...*sigh*)

Hum, is there no way for anyone here at this thread to post up thumbs? If so, thats something I would definatley think about changing seeing more and more members are prone to pitch ideals here. Thats, or they could post thumbs at their album or gallery and then post direct links to their work.

A considerably higher view is very much good to hear, and your view does matter, at the least to me *thumbs up*

Professional in what? Pertty much alot. Storyboarding, Animatics, Animation (Both traditional and CG), Background and layout work, conceptual work, graphic work, the list keeps going.....

If your just curious about training however, I've been trained by Bill Recinos (Veteran who has worked on Disneys Beauty and the Beast, The Rescurers, Aladdin, Mulan, He-Man, Bravestar, ect) Douglas Kirk (Veteran for Dreamworks, worked on Balto, Prince of Egypt, El Dorado, ect) James Stapp (Maquette sculpture, CG modeler, Model rigger for disney and other houses {Disney's Dinosaur, Reign Of Fire, Kangaroo Jack, ect}) and a few other chaps.

Hope that clears things up more when I refer to Professional.

true_noir_chloe:

Hey, haven't seen ya in a while. and your trinity avatar has changed as well, then again, so does mine huh?

Mave sent you huh? Groovey, tell her I'd like to see her drop by as well *Thumbs* and give her my thanks.

*Reads through Post* OMGood golly gracious ^^, you posses the power! ^_- I can say your offer is very tempting, and I'd like to commit myself to one major project before my schedule becomes overflown again. Yes, we must discuss more via e-mail. And don't worry, I'm very good at adapting styles, a wide range of styles in fact so let me know ahead of time if you guys have a particular style in mind.

also, it's good that your not making it exclusively to christians, this makes the manga more free to marketing concerning other demographs not directly christian. Also, it works better and doesn't disclude anyone not christian, so they don't feel like they need to be in church or be a minister to understand whats going on.

Yes, we must e-mail soon.

Any other qestions however are welcomed, if I did sound scary or anyting in my first reply rest assured I'm not out to bite or condem, just to help make this thread stronger when it comes to pitching anything.

God Bless,
Archan
1 Peter 5:10 "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
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Postby Mave » Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:23 am

Hello everyone, I asked Chloe to respond to this thread, while I was typing out my own response. She can vouch for me that for some bizarre reason, my browser would not work with CAA in the middle of my typing, and she ended up responding first. Hehe ^__^

At first, I wasn’t sure whether this was relevant to me since I don't really manage a project or team and write my own manga instead. So, I guess I'll just comment from an artist's point of view.

[color=Sienna]Archan:
Thanks for explaining your view of “bibleâ€
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Postby uc pseudonym » Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:15 pm

Archan wrote:First off a character bible is a visual aid done pior to pre-production so the hired artist and staff always have a reffrence to the characters to make sure they are always drawn on model. Included in a Character bible are the following, Turnarounds, Action Poses, Head Turnarounds, Props (Weapons, decals, markings, etc), Costumes, Expression Chart, Color Treatments (Oprtional for B&W Manga, but should still be noted), Charater Bios, Demeanor, and history of all the included (and if not all a the least the main)charaters to be starring in the Manga. This bible is always in order of character or page type (Either all the pages relating to one character are located in one section, or all the pages are divided and sorted by type {Turnarounds, Props, Costumes, etc.}) Also, this bible should be readily accessable to one's production team and publically accessible if one is to interest any future artist.


Thank you for your response]A concept bible goes as follows: Character wise a coceptual bible may only include your main characters, short bios, roles, turnarounds, one major head study, and any other information vital to the show at the least. Along with this however the following is also included, environments (BG's, Pans, Building layouts), locations (Environmental studies), veichles (If any), major vital secondary characters or machinery (Mech's, Armed personel, landmarks) as well as a summary for plots to cover one whole volume.[/quote]

Actually, there is already such on the forums for The Fall, and I am currently working on a far more advanced one (dozens of pages long, in theory). Still, I'm void in the images category.

Archan wrote:I described the Fall? Well, just to be more direct and clear, my observation was a generalization and a set example for more then one story I've read about here at this thread. I keep from setting examples from existing work here to keep from offending anyone. If you think I was soley speaking of 'The Fall", I wasn not, and apologize if you were offended as well as anyone else, and if there is a pitch out there titled "the Narrow Path", I'm really sorry, because that was just by pure chance, I was reffering to the phrase "The straight and narrow path.." not to anyones particular ideal....*sweat drop*


My statement could be interpreted several ways]but people posting and pitching ideals should include more then a paragraph (And I do see memebers here do exactly that, I'd just wish there where more...*sigh*)[/quote]

Hopefully for the sake of encouragement to you, I will explain one positively resulting example. I had (have) a manga idea called Tic Tac Toe Joe, a parody of game manga in general. After posting a somewhat short concept design (though far more than a paragraph) I had an artist within a week.

Archan wrote:Hum, is there no way for anyone here at this thread to post up thumbs? If so, thats something I would definatley think about changing seeing more and more members are prone to pitch ideals here. Thats, or they could post thumbs at their album or gallery and then post direct links to their work.


Do you mean thumbnails? If so, I do not see why they could not merely be attached to the threads.

Archan wrote:Professional in what? Pertty much alot. Storyboarding, Animatics, Animation (Both traditional and CG), Background and layout work, conceptual work, graphic work, the list keeps going.....

If your just curious about training however, I've been trained by Bill Recinos (Veteran who has worked on Disneys Beauty and the Beast, The Rescurers, Aladdin, Mulan, He-Man, Bravestar, ect) Douglas Kirk (Veteran for Dreamworks, worked on Balto, Prince of Egypt, El Dorado, ect) James Stapp (Maquette sculpture, CG modeler, Model rigger for disney and other houses {Disney's Dinosaur, Reign Of Fire, Kangaroo Jack, ect}) and a few other chaps.

Hope that clears things up more when I refer to Professional.


That will be sufficient, yes.
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Postby true_noir_chloe » Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:51 pm

Archan wrote:
[size=84]As for artist not having time to read, says who? If any artist whom wants to work on anything conceptual is too lazy to read a detailed discription on what he/she will be working on, I don't think you'll want that artist working for you.
[/size]

I agree with this 100%. I ran into this problem with the two people I spoke with before I was blessed with Mave saying yes to draw out my concepts and ideas. Nothing gets done if no one puts forth an effort.

Mave wrote:She can vouch for me that for some bizarre reason, my browser would not work with CAA in the middle of my typing, and she ended up responding first. Hehe ^__^



I have to vouche for Mave, yes her computer wasn't working last night. *hehe*

Archan wrote:
[size=84]Yes, we must discuss more via e-mail. And don't worry, I'm very good at adapting styles, a wide range of styles in fact so let me know ahead of time if you guys have a particular style in mind.
[/size]
I'll pm you Archan and give you my email address. It would be fun to talk to you about your work.

Thank you for bringing this subject up. I never saw it as negative at all, just realistically observant. Thanks. ^___^ It also is the first time Mave and I have mentioned on CAA our collaboration. We've been rather secret about it, except for our closest friends here.

[size=84][color=seagreen]YOU SEE


You see into the deepest part of me ---

beyond the fog I hide behind.

You cast your light upon the shadows

that stretch like cobwebs in my mind.

You ease the pain when I am hurting,

and morbid visions from my past

pierce into the realm of Reason

as though I danced on blades of glass.

You grant me strength when I have fallen

and, once again, I've lost my way.

You take my hand in Yours and lead me

into the promise of a brand new day.

You bring order to all my chaos,

yet set my well-laid plans awry.

You place me on a firm foundation ---

then give me wings so I can fly.

You sand away my roughened edges

and polish all the dullest parts

until I stand before Your presence...

a newly-sculpted work of art.

You see into the heart within me,

right through my motives and selfish will.

And yet, in spite of all You see

You say You love me even still.


~by D.M.~

[/color][/size]
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Postby uc pseudonym » Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:02 am

true_noir_chloe wrote:Thank you for bringing this subject up. I never saw it as negative at all, just realistically observant.


Now that it has been mentioned twice, this might be a good time to point out that I was actually referring to my post, not the thread...
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Postby Archan » Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:59 pm

Yay, more reponses.

Mave:

Yay! You were able to make it. Groovey! Ew, computer wasn't working huh? Yeah, I know how that can feel. I was trying to get my computer working over the weekend but the software for my internet provider isn't exactly the best of providers, so I have to call them and see if they can fix whatever is going wrong with my computer. Hope your having more luck then me however.

Anywho's back to business. I'm glad I was able to successfully discribe what a character bible and a pitch bible are for you guys.

Hum, so all your artwork is self taught huh? Thats really good stuff for being a self taught art student. I applaud you even more. You really should think of going to an art college, I will only sharpen your skills even more.

The Yahoo photo album works as well. You would just post a direct link with your pitch so whomever was interested would have access to the needed material. Yeah, thats groovey as well :thumb:

Don't worry, I'll give you more time now I know were both in the same boat :P

UC:

Hum, so you generally have it all written but nothing visual to share huh? Thats cool, though this bible thing would actually apply more to those whom have art, still if you do have a more detailed synopsis and such thats a great start. Have you typed out the bio's and discriptions for each character yet?

*Laughs* So you've already written a novel then huh? Thats cool, I for one do like reading, but you might want to condense it a tad more, if only for those whom don't like to read so much.

That is encouraging, hopefully others will follow in your footsteps with "Tic Tac Toe Joe" as an example.

Actually, yes I do mean thumbnails. And if they can be attached here then I HIGHLY encourage everyone to do so.

true_noir_chloe:

*Laughs* Groovy vouching for Mave Chloe.

I recieved your PM, and my e-mail should be publically available on my general bio thingy, if it isnt though here it is (I don't mind everyone knowing my e-mail, hence why I'm posting it) Darkmatterxarchan@yahoo.com Mail me ASAP so we can being chatting. do be soon tough, being I have other people (Not at this forum) whom are begging for my attention and particular......talents ;)

Wow, this is the first time you guys have announced your collaberation? I feel so honored!

Anyways, I hope this helps anyone else with pitching in the future and for those of you trying to hire on artist. If there are any more questions about bible's in general, feel free to ask.

God bless,
Archan
1 Peter 5:10 "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
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Postby uc pseudonym » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:39 pm

Archan wrote:Hum, so you generally have it all written but nothing visual to share huh? Thats cool, though this bible thing would actually apply more to those whom have art, still if you do have a more detailed synopsis and such thats a great start. Have you typed out the bio's and discriptions for each character yet?


There are brief personality bios for every character, and I am slowly working on extensive descriptions. At the moment I am covering only the most core characters, but I will expand to the important secondary characters when I am able.

Archan wrote:*Laughs* So you've already written a novel then huh? Thats cool, I for one do like reading, but you might want to condense it a tad more, if only for those whom don't like to read so much.


Perhaps it would be possible to create an in-depth summary...
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Postby uc pseudonym » Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:53 pm

New question, but related to concept bibles.

I am currently recontemplating the Pilgrim's Progress project, and have sketched out the entire remaining plot. When Gypsy finishes the first issue, I would like to have an in-depth concept bible created to use in an announcements thread. So, I would greatly appreciate it if any of the other participants in this thread (or indeed anyone else) could give me a fairly detailed list of typical components of a professional concept bible.
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Postby Archan » Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:43 pm

Awwwwww,
Does this mean I'm not invited to play UC? :sweat:

Personally though, I haven't seen much of artwork regarding PP because alot of the art is either not posted or scattered through-out other threads. So, with that said anything you throw together at this point would most likely suffice. But, just in case I'm not invited to respond ( ;) ) I'll wander off in another tangin for now :lol:

Anyways, the real reason why I'm here. I realized that here I was ranting about more visuals needed and all this stress on character bibles, and I didn't even post any visual aids or examples of my own. :hits_self My bad. Anywho, here are tons of links on stuff I mentioned. I highly stress everyone look through them and try tp apply what you see and learn to any type of bible that may be developing for the time being. Hope you enjoy the links.

God bless,
Archan


http://dcanimated.toonzone.net/index.htm
http://lensman.freeshell.org/images/index.html
http://www.oomu.org/lastexile-images.html
http://www.telecom-anime.com/cybersix/english/character/character.html
http://et-caetera.org/mono/
http://www.catsuka.com/interf/gengal/sketches/kor/gal.html
http://www.aicanime.com/products/mahoyugi/3d/mahochara3.html
1 Peter 5:10 "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
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Postby uc pseudonym » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:13 pm

I said participants in this thread, which indicates yourself, true_noir_chloe or Mave. If you'd like to answer the question, go ahead. At the moment I'm not going to throw anything together... I first need better pictures of some of the action and the villains.

Meanwhile, I must look at those many links...
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Postby Archan » Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:39 pm

Oh sorry, I must have misread the your other post. Anywho, I hope those links help out. As for what you should include for a online Manga bible basically all the stuff i mentioned before. Character sheets with bios, A few BG's and location scenes, perhaps some designs on things like veichles or anything of that type, as well as an overall summary of the concept as a whole. If you want a more direct guide, this site wold probably be a good example on how you would set things up....

http://www.oomu.org/lastexile-images.html

It's a link i already included in the list below, but has enough key information to keep the audience aware of what the anime or manga is about.

God Bless,
Archan
1 Peter 5:10 "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
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