Took me a long time to get back to this thread, sorry. Real life and all that.
I’m still going to try to make a broad distinction between worship music in church and Christian music generally that isn’t specifically for church, but all in one post.
Part 1: Worship music in church
Mullet Death wrote:I think that at Mass music should be based strongly on Gregorian chant and the organ and other more "traditional" instruments. [. . .] Traditional Catholic music and liturgical practices like the use of incense are therefore pretty well the best of worlds, invariably creating an appropriate atmosphere while not looking like a concert or circus.
I don't know if I contributed to the thread or not.
Gregorian chant and incense FTW.
About chant, obviously I agree completely; there is something really special about it. During the time when I was visiting Catholic churches to learn more about Catholicism, I once had the good fortune to attend a Mass that was Ordinary Form but nevertheless had chant as the predominant musical style, and it was amazing how much more musical and stylistic unity and continuity with tradition that Mass had compared to your typical OF Mass at an average parish just by making plainchant the baseline for everything.
But speaking of traditional Mass, have you ever been to EF Mass or to an Anglican Use Mass? Those, I think, also have a great deal of substance in the texts that are used as well as having stylistic and liturgical integrity and unity (it’s just unfortunate that the EF is in Latin, so you have to bury your nose in the Missal in order to understand any of the Proper texts).
Kraavdran wrote:I would like to clarify that "protestant" is not really a uniformed structure of beliefs or service styles. Some even don't believe in music at all. Some use music as a solely intellectual (not emotional) drive.
You're right, of course. I used to be a Protestant and usually try to be sensitive to the variety of beliefs and practices within Protestantism when talking about it, but I was painting with broad strokes there, sorry.
Just for the sake of my own knowledge, I'm curious about which denominations don't use music at all (because that is something I have not come across) and which ones you would see as using music primarily in an intellectual way.
Kraavdran wrote:Are you saying that talking about how people compare to God (for example, us dedicating ourselves to God or, in a healthy way, humbling ourselves before Him) is bad? I'm not entirely certain how far you would take this.
You bring up a good distinction, and one that I tend to forget about because so much Orthodox music does not make any mention of the singer/speaker.
Basically, I would say that things that focus on talking about the worshipper's emotions or what the worshipper is doing, like "I'm so in love with you" or "I'm filled with awe" or "I feel like dancing" or whatever are not what worship should be. If people are able to sing such things while sincerely feeling those feelings for God, then that's not a bad thing, but the songs can easily be counterproductive because the focus is on the worshipper (and also it will be an alienating experience for anyone who doesn't feel those emotions at that particular moment).
However, in the Orthodox services we do have one really big exception to the general tendency not to reference the worshipper in our song lyrics, and that is the penitential songs that we sing. For example, we have one that says, "I have stained my soul with terrible sins. I have spent my whole life slothfully." It's a prayer for cleansing and repentance, and it invites us to look at ourselves to recognize our sinfulness and brokenness, which is something that is necessary for repentance. So when we are doing that sort of thing, we are looking at ourselves for the sake of realizing our sinful condition; it's a humble thing and it is for the sake of repentance. This is really, really different from, for example, a song I have heard on K-LOVE where the singer is talking about how great her relationship with God is, and although she had good motives and just wanted to share about her love of God, to me it sounds like bragging ("Look how great I am spiritually!") and is not helpful to me as a listener.
We also have in the Orthodox services some exhortations to specific actions (they are usually "let us" statements). For example: "Let us joyfully begin the all-hallowed season of abstinence: and let us shine with the bright radiance of the holy commandments of Christ our God, with the brightness of love and the splendor of prayer, with the purity of holiness and the strength of good courage." It is not saying that we have these things, so it's not saying, "Hey look at all the good qualities we have," it is an encouragement to put on those qualities and to do those things (to follow the commandments, love others, pray, etc.) And here's another: "The time for combat is at hand and has begun already; let all of us set forth eagerly upon the course of the Fast." These are both from Monday in the first week of Great Lent.
So the short answer is no, I don't think that an exhortation to do good or songs of humbling ourselves before God are bad; I would say those are both good things to do.
Kraavdran wrote:I would really like to hear what you have to say about that [physicality in worship].
Sure. This goes back to something I *think* I mentioned above about how there's more to the human person that the mind and the emotions. The physical body is also an integral part of who we are (we are not souls that
have bodies; we are soul-and-body, and persons are bodies just as much as they are souls). So for one thing, we have things in our services that appeal to all five senses. For sight, we have the icons and the visual beauty of the nave; for hearing, obviously the music and spoken word; for smell, incense; for touch, we have motions that we make with our bodies, and we also venerate the icons and other things by kissing them; for taste, there's the Euchraist, and blessed bread (that is something that even non-Orthodox visitors may eat, and we do so in the service itself), and also having a meal together after certain services is a huge part of Orthodox culture that goes all the way back to the first century where Holy Communion was a full meal, the agape feast. (Basically, we still have the agape meal, but we have separated out receiving the body and blood of Christ in Holy Communion from the full meal to prevent problems like the abuses that Paul talked about in Corinthians.)
Speaking of the Eucharist, Nate said something above about not being able to physically interact with Jesus, and I'd just like to point out that those of us who believe in Real Presence would absolutely disagree with the statement that you cannot physically interact with Jesus in the service. It does not get more physical than eating his flesh and drinking his blood in the form of bread and wine. Since this is a theological issue, though, I just want to respectfully point out that there is a difference of opinion, not start an argument.
Not quite along the same lines, venerating the icons (and a few other things) is an important part of worship for us. For example, sometimes in Protestant worship songs or songs by Christian bands I have come across the sentiment of wanting to kiss Jesus' feet. Well, we have a crucifix icon in our nave, and I think it is really wonderful that we don't have to merely sing about it but we can do that: we kiss his feet. Of course, the icon is not Jesus himself, so it is like kissing a photograph of a loved one, but it allows us to express our love for Christ in a physical way.
But the main thing that comes to mind in terms of physicality in worship is that we make the sign of the cross and bow at various times. The sign of the cross is used as a sign of respect (e.g. when the persons of the Holy Trinity are named) or as a physical gesture that corresponds with a moment of prayer. Often we make the sign of the cross and bow from the waist. And we also have prostrations, which is bowing all the way to the ground. So in a Protestant service one might sing a song that says "We bow down," but I have never seen anyone actually do this in a Protestant service. We would say "We bow down," but we wouldn't literally do it. But in an Orthodox service, we have some times when we sing things like, "Before your cross we bow down," and we
really do bow down when we sing that.
This is, by the way, not mandatory for anyone (well, with the exception of clergy I guess)--no one is required to bow or to prostrate or to make the sign of the cross. But doing so is helpful for a couple of reasons.
One is something that actually a Protestant friend said to me about going to more traditional Protestant services like Lutheran services where they do have some of those things like the sign of the cross. She said to me, "Even if I don't feel like worshipping, at least I can be obedient with my body." So there are times when the emotion is not there, you don't feel emotional or anything, but even in those times you can still as an act of the will choose to worship with your body even though you can't control what you do or do not feel emotionally. But to do something with your body does affect your internal disposition, also; kind of like how if you hold a pen in your teeth (making the physical gesture of a smile) you will feel marginally happier than if you hold it with your lips, when you place your body in a humble position, it does help to cultivate an inner disposition of humility.
Also, I just find that the body wants to be involved in worship. I never guessed, the first time that I saw everyone in the church prostrate all at once, that prostrations would be something I would come to value and that would be important to me, but I did, and they are. To me it's like this: if you are able to intellectually grasp or emotionally feel even a tiny portion of the concept of how lowly we are before God and how much we are in need of his grace, then why would you
not want to make yourself as low as possible before him? Or to use a more general example (one that applies to other Christians, not just to Orthodox), when people do feel strong emotion in worship, it's very understandable that, for at least some people, they want to express that in a physical way, like by raising their hands. Basically, it is good for worship to be able to be expressed physically and to involve the body, also, because then more of the whole person is involved, the body as well as the mind/emotions.
Kraavdran wrote:To what extent does music create divisions by making some people uncomfortable. For example, singing about how events Revelation have already happened (preterism) or how women should not be in places of authority in church or men shouldn't have long hair (just to clarify, I'm talking about things that cause problems that would qualify as "non-essentials"). Maybe a more relatable example (which I might have mentioned earlier, I can't remember), I find some aspects of Calvinism particularly stifling in terms of spiritual growth/action. Would I really want to go to a church that sings about TULIP (or, if you are a calvinist, consider the opposite situation). Now, don't get me wrong. I think that this can be taken to the extreme to the point where you have watered-down words on a page. And, I recognize, that you might be a person who really needs specific/elaborate theology worked into worship. I can't really say if there is a "certainly good" or "certainly bad" in those terms. What are your thoughts on that? I kinda feel torn between the two extremes, to be honest.
You’re not the only one who finds Calvinism stifling.
(Apologies to any Calvinists out there, but this is something I have heard from multiple people.)
Back to the subject, though, this is a really big topic.
First of all, about the idea of singing about Preterism or men not having long hair or something like that, of course that would be silly, and I don't think there is anyone who would do that.
Now, this is a specifically Orthodox distinction, but I'm going to use it because I feel that it is helpful in distinguishing between two separate things. We use the word "theology" only to refer to statements about God himself. So that would be Trinitarian theology and Christology. Other Christian teachings we would call "doctrine," so we don't say "theology of the Fall" or "theology of sin" or "theology of hell," we would say that we have doctrines about those things.
I say this cautiously, because I feel like I'm very soon going to think of some exceptions, but I think that in general the Orthodox hymns are more focused on theology and on historical events (from salvation history, from the Bible, from lives of the Saints, sometimes from Church history), though there is doctrine included. Nobody is singing songs about why women are not priests (actually, I’m not sure that would even be included in the topic of “doctrine,” maybe it would be “liturgics” or “church discipline,” though that’s beside the point).
Obviously, my viewpoint is that specific theology and teachings
should be included in the services. For one thing, when you do that, it teaches the laity correct doctrine and theology, so it's important for spiritual formation. For another thing, precisely as you say, if you remove every doctrinal or theological statement about which someone could possibly disagree, then you are going to completely strip your songs of all content and you will end up with childish, simplistic songs that have no intellectual appeal and are exactly the sort of thing we all have been complaining about throughout the duration of this thread.
So an Armenian walks into a Christian Reformed church and he feels uncomfortable because the Sunday School has the kids come up and sing a kid’s song that teaches the kids what TULIP stands for. Well, he should be uncomfortable! The feeling of discomfort is there to tell him, “This church teaches something different than what I believe.” That whole church is going to have an emphasis and theology that’s very different from the Armenian’s, so if he doesn’t feel uncomfortable during the worship songs, he’s going to start feeling uncomfortable after listening to a sermon or two and hearing the Calvinist emphasis and flavor come out in the pastor’s teaching. And if you want to get rid of anything doctrinally specific in not just the worship but also the teaching of the church, then all you are going to be left with is a bunch of churches that cannot say anything other than, “Jesus is my friend” or “God is love.” Everyone will only be getting milk, not solid food, because you cannot go very deep at all into teaching about Christianity without getting into some kind of statement that some other kind of Christian is going to disagree with. And then anyone who is at all intellectual and requires something to mentally chew on is going to say to himself or herself, “If Christianity is this trite and banal, it cannot possibly be true” and walk out. (Really! I’m not trying to make a slippery slope; I’m just pointing out that if you take all the doctrinal content out of worship and the teaching both, then that really is how people will react who need something intellectually satisfying.)
Now, to desire Christian unity is a really good thing. We should all want that. But I think that getting rid of any kind of doctrinal statement is not the right way of going about it.
To take a really big and glaring example, “God is Triune” and “God is One and is not Triune” are two very different statements about who God is. They cannot both be true, at least not if you believe in the law of non-contradiction and aren’t a complete relativist in a “What I believe is true for me and what you believe is true for you” sort of way.
The way that we
ought to be taking to strive for greater unity is to come to a greater understanding of what the truth about God really is. So imagine a circle, with a point at the center and an edge around the outside. A true understanding of God is the center. We are all at various points around the outside of the circle (and actually not at equidistant points; some are closer than others). If we want to get closer to each other, the way to do so is for all of us to get closer to the center. In other words, we should be striving towards the truth. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that we should strive for more and more minute doctrinal minuteness, but it does mean that our response to the fact that there are differences among Christian denominations needs to be to try to dialogue with each other to come to an agreement, not just sweep things under the rug.
We have inherited a state of affairs in which there is a great deal of doctrinal disagreement, and Christians are very divided—but if we try to fix that by just ignoring the differences of belief that are there, then that’s like treating a disease by doing something that will bring a little bit of relief to the symptoms but doesn’t solve the root cause, or putting a band-aid on a bullet wound without fishing out the bullet, something like that. It’s not going to solve the problem. And likewise, having a song that has specific doctrinal content that matches the beliefs of the denomination is not “causing divisions,” it is just revealing the real differences in belief that are already there and are not going to go away just by pretending they aren’t.
I have a definite opinion about what I think is both the
cause of much of the division among Christianity and is also an exacerbating factor that is continuing to make things worse in an ongoing way, but that is off-topic and I will probably start an argument if I go into that, so I’ll forbear. >.> If anyone really wants to know, you can PM me, and I’ll get back to you . . . probably not very quickly.
Kraavdran wrote:It sounds like you may have had experiences with churches who expect people to have emotional experiences (perhaps on the more charismatic spectrum).
Actually, no. Aside from college, when I sent a little while going around and visiting churches of various denominations before eventually settling in a Mennonite church for three years, my time in the Protestant church was entirely spent in non-denominational churches.
Kraavdran wrote:Now, I don't know about your situation, but it does make me wonder. Is that a problem with the songs or the church/worship-team with which you experienced the need to feel emotional? If you think that it is the songs, what specifically about the songs could be changed? Or is it something you find inherent in the musical medium itself?
I think I should clarify a bit about what my experience was like when I was in Protestant churches. I actually did generally enjoy worship music (more or less depending on the quality of it), and I did have a lot of powerful emotional experiences at times. Usually I would be able to produce a more or less appropriate emotion, I guess. It’s a little hard to say looking back, but I think at the time the biggest conflict for me was that there were some songs where I would look at the lyrics and think to myself, “Wait a minute, this song isn’t about God, it’s mostly about my emotions!” And I didn’t think it was right to sing songs that were mostly about us and about the worshipful emotions that we felt rather than mostly about glorifying God. This became a huge pet peeve for me my last few years in Protestantism. Actually, thinking about my posts in this thread . . . I guess it is still a huge pet peeve. ^^;;
But as for feeling relieved to get away from that sort of thing and from feeling that I had to try to make myself feel a certain emotion, it was kind of like this: sometimes you can miss something without realizing how much you missed it until you encounter that thing again, like when I was living in Japan but was back in the States for vacation, I would never think about rice much at all, but invariably when I was able to eat rice again I was always thinking, “Man, I missed rice so much, it’s so good to eat it again!” So kind of like that, I don’t think when I was a Protestant I was thinking very much about how certain Protestant songs made me feel like I had to produce a certain kind of emotion in order to sing them sincerely, but once I got away from those kinds of songs, it was like, “Man, it’s really a relief to get away from that.” All of a sudden I didn’t have to
try to feel a certain emotion or else feel guilty or feel like something was wrong with me spiritually for not feeling a particular emotion at a certain time—instead, I found that sometimes an emotion would come, but if it didn’t, that was fine too, I could still worship.
As for what specifically it was in the songs, it’s the sort of thing I’ve been talking about, songs that have lyrics that reference some sort of emotion that supposedly the worshipper is already feeling, like “I’m filled with awe and wonder” or something like that. That isn’t a lyric from a particular song, it’s something I just made up, but I’m pretty sure there’s some song I’m thinking of that says something like that, and I just can’t remember what it is or what song it came from (haven’t been in a Protestant church in almost two years).
I don’t think worship songs should do that. For one thing, it’s not about God, it’s about the worshipper. For another thing, you have songs that say things like, “Oh, I feel like dancing” (this is a real song and actually one that I like a lot), and if you have someone in the congregation who realizes, “Wait a minute, I don’t feel like dancing, though!” then you’re creating a conflict for them and they’re going to experience some cognitive dissonance if they sing along, because then they’re singing something that is not a true description of their emotional state. If instead we just sang stuff like “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord of Sabaoth, heaven and earth are full of your glory,” we wouldn’t have that problem.
So, Kraavdran, looking at your question again: It’s the lyrics of the songs. It wasn’t any problem with the worship leaders or with music itself. Did that all answer your question, or is there anything else you’d like more clarification on?
Kraavdran wrote:I think that I view music in a similar light as you view chant... all semantics aside. After all, without the musical aspect of music, you are just left with easier-to-follow (at least for me) chant.
I do want to clarify that although I feel that Orthodox worship in general, and chant in particular, is not designed with the goal of arousing emotions, that does not mean that I don't ever feel emotion while listening to or singing chant. On the contrary, the emotions are often very involved--but it is not the
goal of chant to produce emotion. It's a little hard to explain, so I think I will just leave it at that.
Kraavdran wrote:I have had quite an experience with different worship songs, having church-hopped for a few years and attended a Christian university. Every once in a while, we did sing a (non-hymn) song that was surprisingly rich in helpful metaphor and meaning.
Yeah, there are some good, substance-filled contemporary worship songs out there. “Days of Elijah” is awesome! There are even some that I like that despite being a bit simpler still manage to get quite a lot of meaningful content, like “Wonderful Merciful Savior” or “Jesus, Be the Center.” So certainly not all recent worship songs are bad just because they are recent, and not all hymns are lyrically all that great just because they are hymns. But I really wish that worship leaders had more discernment in choosing worship songs that have good, strong content rather than poorly-written but popular ones.
Kraavdran wrote:I have to wonder, now. In terms of worship songs (ones typically sung at church), do you think they should try to stay towards the more positive, God-only genres?
This might be somewhat a rehash of things I've already said, but yes, worship songs sung at church I think, should have specifically religious content. Besides God, we [the Orthodox] also do have some things focused on events in salvation history (e.g. a song about Joseph of Arimathea burying Jesus' body) or on realizing our sinfulness and need for repentance, and those things are referenced to God, e.g. we will recognize our sinfulness and ask God for help.
When you say "positive," I wonder if we're starting to conflate worship music used in church with the capital-C CCM (to borrow Mech's term), the stuff that plays on K-LOVE, which we've all been complaining about.
Worship music in the Orthodox church, insofar as it is mostly other-focused and not focused on ourselves, is not going to be positive in a "look how happy I am!" or "I have Jesus in my life and therefore everything is always okay!" sort of way. Neither is it going to be negative in the way that Christian extreme music bands (/bands who are Christian) often focus on the negative emotions and struggles that they or other people are going through. The events they are about might be somber or might be joyous, but they are not about trying to create a positive atmosphere by pretending things are always okay all the time or about looking at our own emotions and saying "I feel joyous" or "I feel like dancing" or "I feel awe" or whatever. Basically, worship is not about our own emotions (though there are a few exceptions here and there where emotions are mentioned, usually as an exhortation rather than a statement that assumes the emotion is already there). Let me give some examples:
Today He who hung the earth upon the waters is hung upon the cross.
Today He who hung the earth upon the waters is hung upon the cross.
Today He who hung the earth upon the waters is hung upon the cross.
He who is King of the angels is arrayed in a crown of thorns.
He who wraps the heaven in clouds is wrapped in the purple of mockery.
He who in the Jordan set Adam free receives blows upon His face.
The Bridegroom of the Church is transfixed with nails.
The Son of the Virgin is pierced with a spear.
We venerate Thy Passion, O Christ.
We venerate Thy Passion, O Christ.
We venerate Thy Passion, O Christ.
Show us also Thy glorious Resurrection.
Few were the words that the thief uttered upon the Cross, yet great was the faith that he showed. In one moment he was saved: he opened the gates of Paradise and was the first to enter in. O Lord, who hast accepted his repentance, glory to Thee.
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life.
These songs are not some sort of sugar-coated positivity that ignores evil and pain. Neither do they require you to say you feel some emotion that you might or might not actually feel at that moment. Rather, they are an invitation to contemplate and enter into the mystery of salvation accomplished by Christ.
Kraavdran wrote:Again with my example with God's love being "a hurricane and we are the trees."
I've been a bit reluctant to list specific examples of songs that exhibit the qualities that I think are unfortunate, either in worship music or CCM, because there's always the danger that I will end up execrating something that someone poured their soul into, with the best of intentions, and that expresses something very personal and very important for them about their walk with God.
This song is like that. The story behind it is that the songwriter who originally wrote the song had a very close friend who passed away, and he felt like he needed to be in a dialogue with God, and out of that prayer with God during a time when he was hurt and working through a lot of anger came this song.
So, actually, like you, Kraavdran, I have a lot of problems with the lyrics in the verses, like comparing the grace of God (something that is so good it exceeds comprehension) to drowning (something unequivocally bad), and some other things as well, and from a literary standpoint I don’t think they’re well-written. But I find that I’m reluctant to go into those things here because I feel bad about criticizing something that I know was so personal and important to the person who wrote the song and I’m not sure what benefit such a critique would have. (Would it edify those who are reading? I’m not sure about that.)
ClaecElric4God wrote:I really liked that chant you linked, Kaori.
Glad you liked it! There’s plenty more where that came from, though if you just do a search on YouTube for Orthodox chant, most of what you find will be in some other language.
Kraavdran wrote:All these things aside, it kinda makes me wonder if musical worship should even be a part of a church service. What do you guys think? I can see some real nice pros for removing music from churches. But, at the same time, that idea grates against my sense of what is good.
The Orthodox church fathers almost decided not to use music in worship at all because it is so prone to emotional excess that the emotion can become the driving force and distract people from the message. Fortunately for all church music ever written, the Arians were going around promulgating their teachings with catchy jingles, so the church fathers decided after some deliberation that there needed to be something to counteract that and also that it should be used because (for most people) music touches something really deep within us and can help us enter more fully into the prayers. So I absolutely do think that worship should be a part of music. "He who sings prays twice," one of the Church Fathers said (I think Augustine).
So my short answer would be “yes.” I can see how for you not having songs would not be much of a loss, since music just does not do for you what it does for other people. But please have some compassion on those of us for whom music is deeply meaningful and don’t deprive us of worship music utterly.
Kraavdran wrote:What if we are being too critical? What if we are nit-picking the words or beat?
There's been a kind of theme in a lot of posts in this thread--the idea you seem to keep coming back to is how to try to appeal to everyone, or what to do about the fact that some things appeal to some people and other things appeal to other people.
Honestly, this is a really difficult issue, because any one church cannot be everything to everyone. Just in terms of time and resources (esp. having the people to lead worship), most churches can't offer a whole bunch of different services each of which has a different musical style so that everyone can worship with a music style that they like.
And in some respects, that's a really hard thing. For example, Nate mentioned that to him the repetitive songs didn't have anything to mentally engage him, so he would just mentally check out, but some people are the opposite way, and if they try to follow along in a song that goes rapidly and has different words every time that never repeat (some hymns are like this), then they have a hard time following along. I really feel badly for people on both sides of this spectrum and wish that there were something we could do that meets the needs of both.
But I also think, purely from a practical and realistic standpoint, if we're talking about musical style, like whether to sing hymns or whether worship should be like a rock concert or whether it should be that really bland church-music-with-guitar-and-drums, there really does come a point where you have to just accept a musical style that you don't like. If for whatever reason (e.g. moving frequently) you end up attending several congregations in your lifetime, probably some of them will have music you don't particularly like, and it's just something that has to be put up with. Culture came up at one point in this thread, but the thing about culture is that in modern-day American society (and I suspect in other places), we have not just one culture and one musical expression of that culture but a multiplicity of cultures. So it is just impossible for any one congregation to have a worship style that will please everyone.
(Also, as I’m thinking about this some more, I guess there is a difference between people who are trying but genuinely have a hard time following a certain style of music, like “Man, I’m trying to concentrate but my mind just totally checks out when we repeat the same phrase over and over again” or “I’m trying to sing along, but I just find those hymns really hard to follow” and people who just have musical preferences and dislike a certain musical style. And it’s more in the latter case where we sometimes have to realize that worship isn’t about us and our preferences and set that aside. In the former case, I really don't know what to say other than "That's really hard and I feel sympathy for you.")
On the other hand I think there is a lot of room for worship leaders to be thoughtful and use discernment--especially in terms of lyrics, but also in terms of presentation. For example, I've sometimes seen PowerPoint backgrounds used in a way that seemed to me counterproductive. If we see something animated, like a music video that goes along with the lyrics, then our minds are going to be preoccupied with the video (it draws the eye because of motion), and we're going to get sucked into the film-critic mentality because that is what our culture does when we watch movies or consume entertainment, and we will be so busy mentally critiquing the music video that we can't focus our minds (or any part of ourselves) on worship. At least that was my experience. And going back to lyrics, my personal wish if I were still in a Protestant church (or in a Catholic church, I guess, since their hymns can also be very mixed in their quality) would be that the worship leader choose songs that have a worshipful focus and aren't primarily talking about the worshipper instead of God. And then, of course, they should be sound doctrinally and not teach doctrine that is wrong (of course I realize each denomination is going to have a different stance on what is "sound doctrine," but at least they could choose songs that have good, solid teaching by the standards of their own denomination or tradition). And if they pick ones that are well-written and don't have problematical metaphors, that would be helpful also.
ClaecElric4God wrote:Because there are a lot of times where I can't sing the lyrics of a song in church, not because I disagree with them but because they are so real and meaningful that I get lost in its truth or even convicted of shortcomings in my life, and find myself more inclined to bow my head and give reverence to my God than to try to sing.
Nate wrote:As for memories tied to it, almost all worship songs have the memories of "Me standing up at church looking at a lyric sheet, sometimes hoping I wasn't singing really loud because my singing voice is terrible." Not really particularly inspirational memories! [. . .] Since I'm singing, my mind is focused more on "Make sure I'm singing the right words" than actually thinking about what the words mean.
You know, there’s a lot to be said for participating in singing the worship songs . . . but there’s
also a lot to be said for attentive, concentrated listening, like what Claec was just talking about. This is a concept I came across from one Orthodox writer (apparently some Orthodox thinkers do not like congregational singing): the idea is that a few people sing so that other people can listen with concentration and mental focus. For me, too, even though I like singing, the act of singing itself can make it harder to focus on the content of what is being said. Part of my mind is occupied with the unique challenge of trying to read both the notes and the words at the same time other musical concerns. Sometimes, because of that, I sing a song, and then I find myself thinking afterwards, “Wait, what did that say?” and going back and looking over it again because I wasn’t able to mentally process what it was about. So just supposing you ever happen to be in a church sometime and they’re singing something, maybe consider giving attentive listening a shot, because it sounds like for you the fact that you are singing and you think your singing is bad is a distraction that is hindering you more than it is helping you.
ClaecElric4God wrote:Maybe I'm guilty of using music to get on a spiritual high, I dunno. But I also know that there are times I've really got down to brass tacks and poured out my heart to God while listening to music.
Probably something that brings you closer to God is not wrong. I mean, obviously if you were saying something like actively and deliberately harming other people brings you closer to God, then I would have to disagree with you, but as far as devotional practices go, probably anything that brings you closer to God is not something you need to worry about.
Nate wrote:But shouldn't worship be, I don't know, actual worship? If I'm just standing there singing half-heartedly, how is that worship? How is that pleasing to God? Well, it probably isn't. But if I don't have the emotional capacity for it to be more than that, then what is there to do? I could fake it, I guess. But God would know I was faking it, so that'd be pointless too, so now I don't have a good way out. Either I just sing not being emotionally invested, which means I get condemned by people for "not caring about worship" or I pretend that I'm emotionally invested which makes me a liar in the eyes of God. Kind of a tough choice!
Yeah, this demonstrates
exactly what is problematical about worship songs that are making statements about the worshipper’s emotional state, like “I feel like dancing” or “I’m so happy” or whatever. If you sing them without feeling those particular emotions, then you’re singing a lie.
If, on the other hand, the worship songs in church are making statements about God and who he is without referencing the worshipper’s emotions, then the worshipper can sing it because it’s true regardless of what their emotional state is or is not like at the time.
Nate wrote:I would bet that the way God wants to be worshiped is by our hearts and lives being committed to him. Not how good we sang in church on Sunday. I really doubt God's going to say "Well, you raised your kids with strong Christian values, gave generously to the church, helped organize community programs to minister to the poor, studied my word with fervor, and...uh oh, wait a minute, looks like you thought that Shine Jesus Shine wasn't a very good song and didn't care for it much, well, it's the pit of fire for you, sorry."
Couldn’t agree more.
And all around, thanks for the awesome post, Nate.
Part 2: Christian music / bands that are Christians / cCM not CCM
Midori, Mechana2015, and Kraavdran: You're welcome!
Xeno wrote:Definitely the former of the two scenarios. I grew up in a really conservative (morally) Protestant denomination, and they definitely did not like the "bands whose members are Christians" because all of the music wasn't about god. I, thusly, see christian bands and the other group to be separate types of bands/music, but I certainly believe the latter group should be just as included as the former as far as what Christians should feel is acceptable to listen to.
Okay, that's good. As long as we're all agreed that bands should have artistic freedom, I'm content. In regard to whether we call the bands who are not singing worship songs all the time "Christian bands" or "bands who are Christian," it's not that I think that it doesn't make any difference what term we use and that that might not be a meaningful discussion, but I just don't have strong feelings about it.
And thanks for the link to the song.
Nate wrote:Weird stuff! Video game remixes. And can't forget those rap/hip hop and anime mashups. I also listen to what is affectionately referred to as "dad rock," you know, the stuff you hear on classic rock stations that isn't from the 90s, and occasionally classical/opera. But mostly the first two.
Oh. Um, well then. Of course none of the bands I listed in my previous post is any of those genres, so I guess you wouldn't enjoy, e.g., Five Iron Frenzy even if you approve of the kinds of themes their lyrics are about.
But with the exception of rap/anime mashups, I like all of that stuff you listed too, and I'd be curious to hear sometime what your favorite VGM remixes are. (Not in this thread, obviously.)
Mechana2015 wrote:Five Iron is probably my favorite Christian band to this day because of those types of songs.
Yeah, they were one of my top three favorite bands at one time, and the fact that they have intelligent, humorous lyrics, often with very good spiritual content (but not in a candy-coated way) is a big part of the reason for that. But eventually I just grew out of punk and ska and can't listen to those genres with much enjoyment anymore (nowadays if I were to list my favorite bands, they would mostly be metal).
mechana2015 wrote:Newsboys
What do you think about "Lost the Plot"? I don't have an extensive acquaintance with the Newsboys' discography, but I found this song to be powerful.
mechana2015 wrote:Skillet
The album Collide is by far my favorite of theirs. I stopped following them after Comatose, but I generally enjoy everything before that. (Minus their worship album, which I just haven't heard.)
mechana2015 wrote:Switchfoot- I like this band but they're another bland that just blurs together for me
I like a couple of their songs, but other than that, yeah, they are pretty blurry. "Life and Love and Why" is a favorite of mine that sounds musically different from the others (minor key and a time signature with a triple rhythm help a lot), and I enjoyed "Meant to Live" (have some nostalgic memories with that one).
mechana2015 wrote:RiverTribe
They are really good. Have to say I prefer their second album to the first, but that might be because for such a long time it was the only one of theirs I had.
I'll have to make a note of those electronica bands you listed and check them out; that's a genre that I mildly enjoy but just never really got into.
ClaecElric4God wrote:I cannot fathom why Christian artists never seem to match the majesty and awesomeness of music like Two Steps from Hell, Audiomachine, AdrianvonZeigler, etc.
Ever heard of J.S. Bach?
To name someone more recent, there’s also Arvo Part (he’s more of a choral composer I think, but he also does have some instrumental stuff). Different genre, I know, but there have been Christians in the past who wrote art music, and there still are many Christians out there writing that stuff, we just don’t hear about it because it’s not what gets marketed to us (kind of like how when we think of “Christian movies” the ones that everyone has heard of are Fireproof and God is Not Dead, and no one thinks of Romero or I Confess). And If there are Christian artists writing stuff like what you listed, we probably don’t know they’re Christians (this is a case where Xeno’s “bands who are Christians” would be a very appropriate term) because if it’s instrumental there is no way it would get marketed as Christian unless it’s instrumental versions of praise songs.
These are also not going to be the same genre as what you listed by any means, but Rivertribe, which was already mentioned, is really good. I’d recommend the album Did You Feel the Mountains Tremble? (This is a case of they can be considered Christian because at least some of their music is instrumental versions of praise songs.) The metal band
Schaliach has a few really good instrumental pieces (not just filler but pieces that stand on their own). And
Altera Enigma is a metal band (progressive with some jazz influence) that has more instrumental songs than songs with lyrics on their album.
ClaecElric4God wrote:It's easier for me to split myself between instrumental music and something else than music with lyrics where I have to pay attention to what people are saying and share the exact emotion of the singer.
Yeah, I totally agree. When I was teaching and used to put on music while grading papers, I listened to a lot of VGM and Touhou remixes for that very reason; music with lyrics would often distract me from what I was doing.
. . .
So, it is a little bit ironic that when naming all of those bands in my previous post I actually left out my favorite band, Extol. The reason is because despite being a metal band Extol does tend to be extremely centered on God in their lyrics, often in a positive way, although they do have several songs that address the darker side of things (e.g. “Tears of Bitterness” is a song of doubt which asks questions of God but does not offer any answers). Anyways, they didn’t exactly seem to fit into the category of “bands that focus primarily on the darker side of human life and experience” or “bands who sing about a large variety of topics other than God.”
But as an excuse to bring their music into this thread, I'm going to go back to one of the original questions that was brought up (favorite song).
For me, classical music and popular/rock music are two separate categories, and I really can't compare them. But out of all music that
isn't classical music, this is my favorite song:
Jesus Kom Til Jorden For Å Dø (lyrics
here)